MagicEngine

[Rekrul]

I've been playing a bunch of PCE games recently and while most of them are hard but fair, some of them seem literally impossible. For example, I was playing Shinobi tonight, reloading the save state each time I lost a life and I managed to get to the end of mission 2. The boss for this level is a line of 5-6 idols that spin around when you hit them and you can only hit them while they're facing the screen. All the while, they're moving toward you to push you into an electrical beam. You can only hit them a single time before they spin around and it takes 8 shots to destroy each one. After an hour of trying, the most I was able to destroy was *1*.

I tried timing my shots, firing as fast as possible, you name it. I finally came to the conclusion that at the rate they move toward you, you simply do not have time enough to destroy them before they kill you.

I've encountered this in other games also, like Shadow of the Beast for the Amiga. Things would appear behind you and come at you so fast that there was no way to avoid being hit.

Then there are fighting games like Altered beast and Vigilante where enemies come out both in front and behind you and half of them take more than one hit. So while you're punching/kicking/hacking away at the guys in front of you, more are coming from behind. Turn around to hit them and the guys in front will hit you, concentrate on them and the guys behind hit you. Plus you occasionally have other things come zipping across the screen (like the wolves in AB), which you have no hope of hitting without getting hit by the other enemies. Or platform games where when you reach a certain point enemies and other things drop on your head which you have no hope of avoiding unless you know in advance that they're there and even then you get clobbered half the time. Or you have to drop down into a pit without knowing what's there only to find that it's full of creatures which you land right on top of (Turrican is great for these last two).

Do I just suck at these games or are some of them truly impossible to play without cheating (and some like Shinobi are still impossible even with cheating)?

[Kaminari]

Welcome into the PC Engine world

Oddly enough, this is the system on which I finished the most games (regardless of the genre). I'm not a game expert by a long shot, but I've always found most of the PCE action games extremely well balanced as far as gameplay and difficulty are concerned. Since we're talking about arcade games, you could even say that the PCE conversions closely match their arcade counterparts in these domains.

Incidentally, I've been through Shinobi and Vigilante. They're reasonably tough games, but certainly not impossible. If you want to have a look at some really hard games, I suggest you give a try to Ninja Spirit, Tiger Road, Psycho Chaser, Armed Formation... Now these are truly insane

[Rekrul]

I had a much more detailed reply prepared, but I forgot and hit the back button at which point my browser decided that the page was too old and gave me an expired message, completely erasing everything I'd entered. Since i don't feel like retyping the whole thing, this one will be much shorter.

>Welcome into the PC Engine world

I've seen impossible games on the C64 and Amiga as well.

>far as gameplay and difficulty are concerned. Since we're talking about
>arcade games, you could even say that the PCE conversions closely
>match their arcade counterparts in these domains.

I can't play arcade games any more since I'm not left handed and all the games now have the stick on the left. I also can't play action games with those left handed control pads that are standard on NES, Sega, TG16/PCE etc. People tell me I just have to get used to them and that it's actually better this way. I usually hand them a pen and ask them to try writing left handed. Strangely, nobody thinks learning to write with the 'wrong' hand is a good idea.

>Incidentally, I've been through Shinobi and Vigilante. They're reasonably

Did you beat Shinobi on a real PC Engine, or under ME? The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if the timing in ME might be off a little. Or is there some trick to getting by the second level boss? As far as I can tell, there simply isn't time enough to get all 8 hits in before they reach you. By the time you destroy one, the next is even closer than where the first one started from and eventually you're just going to run out of time.

>tough games, but certainly not impossible. If you want to have a look at
>some really hard games, I suggest you give a try to Ninja Spirit, Tiger
>Road, Psycho Chaser, Armed Formation... Now these are truly insane

I'll have to try those.

I've beaten a few games. I finished R-Type on both Amiga & ME (unlimited lives on Amiga, Save/Load on ME), Space Harrier on ME (Save/Load), Robocop on Amiga (without cheating) and Battle Squandron on the Amiga (I know a friend I beat it in team mode, but I think I beat it by myself as well without cheating).

[Specineff]

To defeat this boss in Shinobi, you MUST use your Ninja magic by pressing select. It's completely impossible to do it the honorable way, since the conversion is not a carbon copy of the arcade, and even seasoned pros had a lot of trouble defeating it with just the ninja stars there. I had to use the save state feature many times too, so don't feel ashamed. The game is just a bit too hard for my tastes, compared to the arcade version. Now, if you want to know what pain and misery are, play the Sega Master System Shinobi.

I have to confess I miss the days when I was able to beat some games without saved states. (SMS Space Harrier, Fantasy Zone, Revenge of Shinobi, Gunstar Heroes, Thunder Blade, Contra 3/Super Probotector on SNES..etc.) I am not the young hyperactive teen I once was. *reaches for his denture and smiles sadly*
_________________
Proud owner of a Dreamcast, Saturn, Turbo Duo and a registered version of ME since 2002.

[solidus667]

I haven't played the game in ages, and never on the TG16, but maybe my arcade knowlege is in part applicable to this console port.

As someone posted earlier, ninja magic helps very much against this boss. You may have developed various ninja-magic-preservation strategies along the way, and this may part from your normal technique.

Start off the level by jumping and firing stars like a crazy retard. I mean hit the jump and fire buttons as fast as possible, and make funny retard sounds with your mouth (this helps). Ok seriously now, as you discovered, the statues are not always vulnerable. I never looked carefully enough to determine whether they had to be facing you or whatever, but they are indeed not always vulnerable. To fire at a single statue that is not vulnerable would be a waste, therefore fire while jumping up and down like crazy.

It MAY be advantageous to be near the statues or far away from them, but I never varified this. If you stand near them and fire like a madman, perhaps having your stars in the air for a shorter amount of time will allow you to fire more of them, for example if there are a limited number of shots permitted in the air at a given time. Then again, as the statues approach, you would need to turn around and run back a little every now and then to reset your position, so perhaps it is better to be far away, so you are always firing and never wasting time adjusting your position.

Use your ninja magic at the very first opportunity you have when as many statues as possible are visible. The principle is that your ninja magic will penetrate the block of bosses, so there is no reason to save this power. Use it as soon as they are all on the screen at once.

In the arcade, I have gotten past this boss in basically 3 ways:

1) Fire like a crazy retard while jumping.
2) Fire like a crazy retard while jumping, and use the ninja magic as soon as all the enemies are on screen. To make this strategy available sooner, I would charge toward the statues and use my ninja magic at such a distance where they were all or mostly visible, but I was not so close that I would overlap the advancing statues such that I would bounce out of the structure afterward, wasting time.
3) The third technique is an exploitation of ninja magic and collision detection. I tried this 3 times and it worked the second try. Basically I killed the first statue and as the opne above it began to fall I jumped into the structure while pressing ninja magic. As ninja magic began to execute, the statues continued to advance, such that my character was in the middle of the entire structure when the magic wore off. At that time I bounced around randomly, and actually came out THE OTHER SIDE. Like with many creatures in this game, a collision is not necessarily harmful and can many times be exploited.

-CHris

[Specineff]

Hmm, Solidus, I have tried this strategy on the TG16 and doesn't seem to work at all. While I witnessed it's successful use on the arcade, the TG16 version has some glitches or changes that make it impossible to defeat this boss without the ninja magic. For example, there are less statues, but now each takes more hits to destroy, and if you touch them, you will bounce back further. Also, you'll remember than in the arcade, touching an enemy will not kill you, but bounce you back. Try doing that with the ninjas carrying two swords on the TG16. Instant death!! Also, the cool handgun you'd get when rescuing the children is gone. Of course, I have not heard of a ninja who relied on firearms to defend himself. The silent assassins weapons were stealth, cunning, and sharp metal objects.

Otherwise, this is a very close conversion of Shinobi, waaay better than Sega's own SMS version. =End of rant=
_________________
Proud owner of a Dreamcast, Saturn, Turbo Duo and a registered version of ME since 2002.

[Rekrul]

>To defeat this boss in Shinobi, you MUST use your Ninja magic by
>pressing select. It's completely impossible to do it the honorable way,

To be honest, I never knew you HAD Ninja magic! I've never played it in the arcade, only on the C64 & Amiga. Thanks, I'll have to try that.

>Now, if you want to know what pain and misery are, play the Sega
>Master System Shinobi.

The Amiga version sucked too. Too hard and the colors were very bland.

>I have to confess I miss the days when I was able to beat some games
>without saved states. (SMS Space Harrier, Fantasy Zone, Revenge of

I think my game playing ability has remained about the same. I always thought I was really good when playing games on the Atari 2600, but I guess those games were just quite a bit easier, since I can still do good on them. I haven't played it in a long time, but I used to be able to play the C64 version of Gyruss for at least a couple of hours. I'd have to keep track of how many times the score rolled over. The one time I tried playing the arcade version, I lasted about 45 seconds.

>As someone posted earlier, ninja magic helps very much against this
>boss. You may have developed various ninja-magic-preservation
>strategies along the way, and this may part from your normal technique.

My magic preservation technique is to have never used it.

>Start off the level by jumping and firing stars like a crazy retard. I

Not sure this would help that much, since the statues are all at ground level when the level starts and jumping just fires over the top of them. I thought at first that maybe I could hit the parts of the statues that stick up a hair over the top of the round shield on their backs, but it's incredibly hard to jump and time your shots at exactly the right second. The boss at the end of level one took forever because of this, but he was a little easier since I could get much closer to him.

>I never looked carefully enough to determine whether they had to be
>facing you or whatever

Yes, they have a big, curved shield on their backs and any stars hitting this will just make a ching sound.

>It MAY be advantageous to be near the statues or far away from them,
>but I never varified this. If you stand near them and fire like a madman,
>perhaps having your stars in the air for a shorter amount of time will
>allow you to fire more of them, for example if there are a limited number

I thought of that too, but it didn't seem to make a difference and then I'd spend too much time moving away and turning around so that I wouldn't get bumped way back.

>Basically I killed the first statue and as the opne above it began to fall I
>jumped into the structure while pressing ninja magic.

From this, I believe the arcade version is quite a bit different. There are no statues on top of each other, and no structure, just an empty room with a line of statues advancing toward you. There's no way to hit any of the others using the stars because the first one blocks your shots.

>Otherwise, this is a very close conversion of Shinobi, waaay better than
>Sega's own SMS version.

Don't forget the missing 3D, shooting-gallery type stage.

On the plus side, I liked and beat both Psycho Chaser and Armed Formation. Of course I used the saved states, but still, it didn't take me more than an hour or two to beat each of them.

[Kaminari]

[Rekrul]

Thanks to the tip about using Ninja magic, I've now beaten Shinobi. Of course I lost about 200 lives doing it.

There are some spots in that game that seem to depend on luck, not skill. For example, in the last level, there's a spot where you need to jump up a level, but there are two of the big guys with swords directly on top of where you need to jump. Once you jump up, you hit the guys and get bounced around like a pinball. It was just pure luck that I managed to kill one of them before they killed me. I think a lot less games would get released if the programmers were required to be able to beat any game they designed, without cheating, before releasing it. Either that, or there would be a ton of much easier games on the market.

[solidus667]

[DanDini]

My mate used to be the shinobi king in the arcades and could do the whole thing on his first life.

I remember he used to fire at the first row and then jump into the middle of the statues and let off his magic. If you got it right you could bounce right out the other side without killing them.

Now, I later found out (once I had my own mame cabinet in my house) that the jump up and down like a retard trick works (on the arcade at least).

On the pcengine, it is a little different but NOT impossible. Try jumping into them and then letting off, they shouldn't be able to kill you when your magic is going off and you might bounce out the other side.

See how you get on...

Hope this helps

DanDini

ps I'll have a go at this tonight and see if I can do it...

[yoyodinepropulsion]

Has anyone ever played the shooter Legion?
along with deep blue, i can't imagine much more ridiculously hard shooters for the PCE (and I've even made it through Rax II!)
but Legion is just plain unfair, hard because its poorly designed. it's the only shooter i haven't been able to beat without ME and wonderful save states...

[Specineff]

LEGION

IS

CRAP.


Spec.
_________________
Proud owner of a Dreamcast, Saturn, Turbo Duo and a registered version of ME since 2002.

[tg_drifter]

[MegaManJuno]